Ep. 35: On redefining customer proposition with Michelle McEttrick, Primark

In this episode of WFA's Better Marketing Podcast, David Wheldon speaks to Primark's Chief Customer Officer, Michelle McEttrick, about pivoting from a 'no marketing' approach to brand building to redefine customer proposition and grow in new markets.

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Transcript

Michelle McEttrick 0:16

I think it's almost impossible.

Speaker 0:23

I was this just this fat unit, you know what I mean, in a in a in a suit. And it was clear that I was not I was not the same as the others.

David Wheldon (host) 0:39

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of WFA's Better Marketing. And today for me is a very special day because my very special guest today is Michelle McKetrick, a very dear friend who I have known. He's a horrendous thought, Michelle, since 1993. When we first met, I was at the Coca-Cola Company, and Michelle was at McCann, Erickson, Seattle. Since then, she's had a stellar career. And actually, just to focus on her last two gigs, the one she's in now is Chief Customer Officer of Primark, and we're going to come on and talk about Primark. Before that, she was six years the group brand director at Tesco. And I think you'll be correct to credit yourself as a key part of the turnaround team that put Tesco back on track. And before that, she had stellar roles in BBH, BBDO, etc. So a storied career, but much more important than that, a great friend. So Michelle, welcome. How wonderful to see you. How are you?

Michelle McEttrick 1:41

Thanks, David. I'm great. How are you doing?

David Wheldon (host) 1:44

Good. Pretty good, thank you. Can we just talk briefly about your trajectory? And one I guess one of the things it's lovely to start with is you and I have talked about this many a time. The experience you get on the agency side stands you in great stead on the client side. But as you reflect on that, which side has been more fun for you? I mean, obviously, you're going to say the best job you've ever had is the one you've got now.

Michelle McEttrick 2:09

That's actually true. And I think with maybe one exception, I think I've been able to say that of every current job. And I think that the my limited insight to that question is that for agency side, client side, the work is really the same, but from a different perspective. And so I think if for people thinking about which they might want to specialize in, I think it's really good to keep that in mind. And that also helps me always remember that it's very much a partnership. And from the client side, if you don't understand very clearly what the benefit to the agency of working on your brand is besides financial, then you're not going to get the best people working on it.

David Wheldon (host) 3:11

Brilliant. Crisply said. And I know you've always specialized in getting the best people, which in itself is a great skill. But I think probably worth just saying for our watchers, listeners, those who don't know Primark should, because it's now one of the world's biggest retailers. Very much a bricks and mortar model, which is interesting in the current times, but across 17 countries, founded in Ireland back in 1969, and one of the fastest growing retail groups in the world. So how how's it been? I mean, you're two years in. How's it going? Enjoying yourself?

Michelle McEttrick 3:56

It's great. I'm actually I'm really loving it. And you're right to plug Primark. Um it is it is very well known in Europe, uh, a very well-kept secret in the US and unknown in other parts of the world. Um, so it's uh it's been it's been really fun. I think there Primark has prided itself in 55 years in not spending money in marketing. So although there is, there are fantastic marketeers in the business who've all used sort of an own channel and an organic approach to tremendous results. But yes, in terms of really thinking about stepping into more of an investments position in marketing, my role is the first.

David Wheldon (host) 4:48

And and how how has it been to kind of get stuck in? Because I know a key part was looking at the Primark brand and taking a deep breath and getting it fit for future purpose. I mean, how how was that process most challenging part, etc.?

Michelle McEttrick 5:03

Yeah, no, you know, it was actually the easiest in doing that that I've ever experienced. Um, you know, you you and I worked together in Barclays, and you'll recall that that was a bit of a teeth pulling exercise and one step forward, and I won't even try and quantify how many steps back on the path. Uh, with Primark, because they'd never really put a brand strategy in place. Um, I looked at it and thought, well, you know, we definitely need some of the building blocks that you that that you need, purpose and values and a strategic framework. And because there was nothing really written in stone as there is in most businesses, we were free to really build it from scratch. And so I collaborated with and partnered with our director of strategy and then our head of culture and leadership. And we we did it together. So, writing the brand strategy, the purpose of the business, the codifying the values and behaviors, and then flowing that into a strategic framework for the business. Um, really, the work itself was not that difficult because we all know that that work is really what is true of the business. You don't need to go out and ask people who you are and what you stand for. You really need to find that inside. And and then the onerous stakeholder management of trying to convince people it's something different than what they thought didn't exist.

David Wheldon (host) 6:39

Yeah. And as you expand, um, plans for Asia, are you looking to move Primark to Asia as well?

Michelle McEttrick 6:49

We have um recently announced that we are going to be opening in um the Gulf Coast area. So that that will be the next geographic um territory that we're opening in. And we're scheduled, I just came off a call on that actually this morning, um rapidly developing plans. So definitely watch this space. But but I think that um obviously the US, uh we have under 30 stores there, is a big growth opportunity for us. So when you think about geography, also think about the US.

David Wheldon (host) 7:26

And as I said in the intro, you know, that you it's really a bricks and mortar business. And I know you've now got click and collect, but can you tell us a little bit about that? Because it's it's counter most direction of travel, but it's working fabulously.

Michelle McEttrick 7:42

Yeah, it um we think of ourselves as in competition with your couch on a Saturday afternoon. And so thinking about what would make somebody get off their couch and actually go into a physical store. Um, and that's led to a lot of really uh interesting in-store experiences. So we have a lot of cafes, we have nail bars, we have um we have uh vintage clothing concessions, we've got a lot of interesting um things that pop up in the stores that can keep the whole family interested on that Saturday afternoon. And then the other thing is we are really conscious that what pure play online businesses can't do is provide the inspiration, the outfit inspiration that we can through visual merchandising in store. And so we um really spend a lot of time making sure that we have the absolute best in the business to build all of those inspirations for customers.

David Wheldon (host) 8:46

And as you've done this, uh I think you've also done it very smartly through partnerships, you know, most recently with Rita Ora, um, but famously in the UK with Greg's. Um how how do you approach partnerships and how useful have they been in building the Primark brand?

Michelle McEttrick 9:05

Yeah, I think that that plays into newness and always having something interesting in that store environment to um make it worth the trip. So I think um it's interesting because I'll tell you the Rita Aura partnership was very organic. And um Rita and our CEO, Paul Marchant, met by happenstance when he was in Los Angeles for meetings, and she approached him because her local store growing up was the Hammersmith Primark, and she's been a fan since she was a teenager and a refugee in this country. And so they got to talking, and uh we had been thinking about a more global um influencing partner, and she just perfectly fit the bill, but mainly because she is such an authentic fan of the brand, and that is absolutely the the um the one criterion that uh Primark insists on.

David Wheldon (host) 10:15

Fan of the brand. Um fabulous. And you know, back to I I love the notion of you're in competition with a couch on a Saturday afternoon, uh, and having uh had the joy of being at one of your store openings in Madrid, I can see that you kind of drive experience and you use influences heavily to do that. But I I guess that then has me think about how do you measure the success of that? I mean, how do you know, you know, when you've got influences like the ones we saw, how do you know they're delivering the goods? You know, how are you checking in on are you delivering the right experiences?

Michelle McEttrick 10:50

Yeah, you know, I think we we have a um what the usual measurement techniques for things like that. So you take a look at media value, um, and and really uh are you actually then selling through on a lot of the products that they're featuring. But I think that the the macro measurement for that is the success that the organic social team at Primark has had in really authentically, authentically growing, you know, over 20 million followers worldwide with no paid uh marketing behind it. So so it's really it's a it's a cocktail that it all together is working.

David Wheldon (host) 11:40

And how does um how do you secure a marketing budget? I mean, given that this business has been built fabulously, and as you just demonstrated, without needing to buy even pay for media to get a fan base?

Michelle McEttrick 11:52

Yeah, you know, I think um we're in, you mentioned we're in 17 countries, and and the the health of the brand is in varying stages in those countries. Um so in in Germany, for instance, it's it's widely known that our parent company, Associated of British Foods, needed to take impairment in the market uh a couple years ago. And so we're looking at that and did just a little bit of proposition research as anyone would taking a look at the situation. And basically I just wrote down the the most bare bones description of what the Primark proposition was and put it into test and came back as suspected as highly appealing. And then we put the Primark brand on it, and that appeal uh reduced by an order of six times.

David Wheldon (host) 12:50

Oh, wow.

Michelle McEttrick 12:50

So it was clear that the offer, the proposition, the product, the price, the quality are all desirable to the German customer, and it was the brand that was the drag. And because the business had tried almost everything else, it was uh probably a slightly easier sell at that stage in time to take a uh flyer on increasing the brand health as a leading indicator for the turnaround of the business, which is actually it's working really well. We launched that in March, um, and we've bought and after the first six months, we've halved the gap to the competition on brand affinity and consideration.

unknown 13:38

Okay.

Michelle McEttrick 13:38

So we yeah, we've got a stubborn, stubborn measure of quality perception, which is really tightly tied into low prices, um, but that's the that's the the next one that we're we're tackling. And then and then on the other side of that spectrum uh of brand health is the United States. And in Europe, uh people travel across countries the way Americans travel across states. And so it's rare to find a European traveler who hasn't come across a Primark in one shape or form or another. And that's not the case in the US. And so we've been in the US for about 10 years, and um one of the things that I would say makes the the US unique for Primark is the competitive landscape is significantly different, and and Primark is actually a category of one. And so there's no there's really no awareness of what Primark does. Um and so so the the the task actually is a very simple um awareness job. And we we've we've done our first campaign in the US uh launched in September. We did a 12-week proof of concept that just we just came out of the market uh the day before the US election. And um tangent available. Um and uh and we're in the middle of measuring that. But um it's really an awareness job there.

David Wheldon (host) 15:20

Fantastic. Listen, what a huge tangent there is available, but we won't take it. We won't take it. But I but I guess that leads to, you know, as you look at the difference in the customer base around the world, what what is the US customer seems to me to be so different, and in a way, the category of one demonstrates that. You know, if you look at the dominance of Walmart um all over the US, how different is the US consumer for Primark?

Michelle McEttrick 15:50

Well, for Primark, the customers who are in our stores are people who happen to be in the malls or the locations that we have stores because we have not built that brand awareness yet. And so you'll find uh the the biggest characteristic that I would point out is because Primark has not stepped forward and really communicated our proposition to customers, what Primark is to individual pockets of customers is just what they've personally experienced.

David Wheldon (host) 16:22

Yeah.

Michelle McEttrick 16:22

So so for parents of small kids, Primark is incredibly great value for their kids' every need. For um, you know, a construction worker, Primark makes the absolute best basics in terms of your you know, workwear, your undershirts, all the things that you need to replenish, socks, etc. Um, and for you know, younger women who really want to um be a bit more fashionable, maybe than some of their friends, it's a great place to find value. So so it it is it I would say the the brand, because of that customer experience, is quite fractured without the work that we're doing to really elevate the awareness of what we actually do.

David Wheldon (host) 17:08

But the brand the brand was in good health. I mean, uh let's let's reflect a little bit on your Tesco time and maybe let's start that with you know, what did you bring out of Tesco? What learning did you arrive with in Primark? And what surprised you that was different about Primark?

Michelle McEttrick 17:26

Yeah, so um first of all, Tesco was my first job in retail. Obviously, from the client side or from the agency side, I had experienced retail brands, but there's nothing quite like being in the belly of a retail beast. And so for that, I would say I learned everything I know about retail at Tesco. And it was an amazing, amazing um training ground. Uh what is what does Primark do differently? What was I surprised by? Primark is more nimble than Tesco, and and I think that comes from a very it's a younger, it's a younger business. It's been around for 55 years, but it hasn't had the it hasn't been at scale for as long as Tesco has been at scale. And and that's something that in as a leadership team, we're really paying a lot of attention to. So how can you keep that entrepreneurial, nimble creativity that is the beating heart of Primark, and and you bring in the right amount of process and repeatability in order to take it to greater scale.

David Wheldon (host) 18:43

Fantastic. And and I know that your role also encompasses sustainability and ethics. And you know, when we were first talking about the role you've taken on, one of the things that astonished me was the supply chain story, which is probably worth sharing with everybody. And also, if you could talk a little bit about Primark cares and and how you're thinking about sustainability more broadly at the moment.

Michelle McEttrick 19:07

Yeah, I I guess the context is there are 8.2 billion people on the planet. And there, I think a lot of people, and in fact, most people would equate luxury or expensive clothing with quality and durability, but fewer than 1% of that population can afford that. And so if we don't have a scale solution, we're in big big trouble. And I think that Primark um recognized that, and and Primark was actually founded um uh intentionally by ABF Associate British Foods, thinking about we're doing a lot to feed the masses. Do we have a responsibility and opportunity to provide value clothing as well? And so if you take that and fast forward then to 2013, that's when Primark launched its the Primarch Cotton Project, which is, I think, what you're talking about. It started by training small holding cotton farmers in India. And it's now, after 11 years, trained over 300,000 of these cotton farmers on farming practices that use less water, include biodiversity, and are really great in terms of financial literacy and improvement of the lives of the farmers, 80% of whom are women. And I did, as you know, had the good fortune of going to visit a few of the villages shortly after I joined Primark, and it was an incredible experience. I also, I remember on the way there thinking, oh, it's gonna be amazing. I'll hear some great stories and you know how it's changed the lives and the and the makeup of the of the um villages. And without exception, we rolled up to these villages and these women farmers got up and gave the sharpest business presentations I think I've ever seen. You know, it was basically like they could have been almost any CFO that I've worked with.

David Wheldon (host) 21:38

Fantastic. It seems to me this is a kind of light that you keep under the Primark bushel. I haven't really seen Primark publicly talk about this much. Is that intentional? I mean, do you do you have plans? I know you can find it when you look on the website, but you have to surf to find the story.

Michelle McEttrick 21:55

Yeah, I think um it's probably uh one of those the answers is something that's evolved. I think that um Associated British Foods and Primark have often thought um deeds over words. And again, without without um paid media, the the activity you do if you rely on on the media to cover you is only news once. So having an ongoing message and story about some of the things that you do uh is harder to achieve. And then I think the other thing is that in in recent years, uh sustainability, ESG, um, responsible um business practice is really more top of mind for consumers, and and now we're in a situation that there's a ton of regulation around what you can and can't say responsibly about what you do. And and so it's catching a lot of brands up in greenwashing and leading to a phenomenon that we're we call green hushing. So you see a lot of brands now really retreating from openly talking about what they're doing in that place, which is probably not a great result because a lot of brands won't have taken on this kind of activity in the same way that Primark did in partnership with ABF, and will look at it and say, is it worth investing in if I can't get credit for it? And so could set set us back.

David Wheldon (host) 23:35

So can we can we just focus a little bit on ABF? Because you know, I I had intended to start like that, but we got straight into some other stuff. Yeah. Um, because from the outside, it's always looked a bit odd that you know ABF, the food business, should have a fashion business, but I think you've already kind of explained why. But maybe could you go a bit longer on that and talk about how that relationship works?

Michelle McEttrick 23:57

Yeah, it's it's a brilliant relationship. You know, Primark is roughly half of ABF. And um it is from my perspective, it's the benefit of uh, you know, FTSE circa 30 business, so the governance and the board, real really high-quality leadership team and board there. And and also the the freedom of managing your business, not in a quarter-by-quarter listed way. And so I think that's been a very um positive uh factor in in Primark's growth. Um ABF is very pro-Primark growing. Um, they take a very long-term view. Uh, I think you can look at that in the history of most of the decisions that they've made, um, which works really well in combination with the, like I said, the nimble, flexible, creative culture that is Primark.

David Wheldon (host) 25:02

I read in campaign recently that one of your biggest concerns at Primark is talent recruitment. And I think you are observing more generally that companies need to rethink the relationship they have with the colleagues that work for them. Can you can you tell us about that?

Michelle McEttrick 25:20

Yeah, I think um that's always going to be the top of my list because that is that's a that's a zero-sum game. There there are talented and hardworking and nice people, but not everyone is like that. And so if you if you think about the culture that you want to build in an organization, and and in particular building um a customer function and marketing function that is fit to support and add value to the growth that Primark has our sites on, the the people in the team are going to be the most critical thing. So I think the question was asked from campaign biggest concern, but it really is something that I would just say is at the top of my of my to-do list is to make sure that I'm always focusing on having the the absolute best team. Um, because that's that's an unbeatable competitive advantage.

David Wheldon (host) 26:25

But I mean, because you I think you've always done that brilliantly, you've always been a magnet for talent. Um and and because you yourself, I think you've worked in four countries, haven't you? US, UK, Portugal, and now Ireland, and you've got passports for three of them. I mean, the only missing one is the Portuguese one. But um, you know, attracting people to work for a Dublin-based company that's a multinational, has that been straightforward?

Michelle McEttrick 26:52

You know, we have because because the business was founded in in Dublin, it's not it, it's not a tax dodge. Uh, it's it's very proudly an Irish uh business. And and yet it's also a very small country. You know, you've spent time working there. And so there's a real clear realization that the talent pool needs to be broader than just the Dublin um talent pool. And so we're quite we're uh a global business across 17 countries. We have we have colleagues in central roles who are um located physically in a lot of different locations. Um, but getting to Dublin um and and being able to experience the real true heart of the business is important. So you don't really feel that I need to have my entire team live in Dublin, but they need to be interested in going there.

David Wheldon (host) 27:59

Yeah, and I think it is uh obviously I couldn't possibly comment on whether I was in Dublin for a company to avoid tax. Um that would be I didn't say that. David was that obviously at the moment, um, it's a fairly heated debate. I was expecting in the UK budget for there to be a bit more action around the companies that make an awful lot of profit in the UK but pay next to no thing. And some of them are domiciled in Dublin, of course. But the pride in an Irish business is quite something to behold. It's amazing. Yeah, and so does your world go green on March the 17th, where in all 17 countries it do j drive Irish pride?

Michelle McEttrick 28:44

Do you know? No, I don't think so, actually. It is it's absolutely a holiday. It is um celebrated, I think it's celebrated with more um gusto in some of our US cities, in fact. Yeah.

David Wheldon (host) 29:03

But I mean, I think I I do think it's a great story that Irish multinational and and um I was talking to a good friend of ours yesterday about I don't think I've ever been to a city in the world that hasn't got an Irish pub.

Michelle McEttrick 29:14

Well, that's so true, exactly.

David Wheldon (host) 29:16

Uh, Irish wherever they go. So maybe there's a there's a thought for you. Um now can I touch on a couple of it broader industry issues? One is, as you know, the obsession about the death of the CMO, and you know, is the CMO really important anymore? And and you you're the chief customer officer, you're not called uh the chief marketing officer. But of course, your role it fully encompasses marketing. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what's why the difference in title? Was that carefully thought through?

Michelle McEttrick 29:52

Yeah, yes, yes. And I think that there's one there are a couple of reasons from my perspective. Uh, one is it would be difficult to create a chief marketing officer for a business that has been very vocal for over 50 years, that they don't spend money on marketing. So I think the optics would have been difficult.

David Wheldon (host) 30:16

Yeah.

Michelle McEttrick 30:17

Now, the real reason is that uh in in particular in retail, there there are three legs to the retail stool. And they're product, channel, and customer. And and Primark has been as successful as it has been, really focusing on two of those legs.

David Wheldon (host) 30:37

Yeah.

Michelle McEttrick 30:38

And so it was really thinking about the potential of bringing customer focus, customer understanding, and externally marketing to customers to really amplify the success of real incredible retail discipline and amazing um products.

David Wheldon (host) 31:06

And uh two years in, what's what's the next two, three years look like? What are you because I it seems to me you've done a brilliant job on getting the brand in shape and we've got the growth strategy in shape. So what next?

Michelle McEttrick 31:19

Yeah, so we've got we're um we're working through a full uh revamp of the customer value proposition that we will be bringing to market in the spring. Uh I talked about sort of dipping our toe into um external marketing in Germany and the US. So we need to further prove those models so we can then fill in the uh different flavors of uh brand challenges that lie in between.

David Wheldon (host) 31:51

Yeah.

Michelle McEttrick 31:51

Um we just finished our Primarch 2030 strategy and there's a there's a laundry list there. Um I've just we have we have our very first brand tracker that we had the first data uh from that came in March. Um I've appointed the Primarch's first head of brand who started three weeks ago. So all of the like codification of the brand, getting the brand higher, the brand architecture in shape, um re resetting all of the uh communication tools is is a lot of pick and shovel work, but that's going to be coming over the next two years also.

David Wheldon (host) 32:39

And and I noticed that you know that a bit like that, maybe there should be people fretting about where why HR isn't called HR anymore, but you're you're working with, I think they're now branded people and culture. So you know you and I always used to talk about building the brand inside out. Um, how important are colleagues in advocating for Primark? And how do you focus on them?

Michelle McEttrick 33:02

Completely. Uh I mean, I mean, you don't get me started on this. It is so important, and especially because we started talking about Primark being a bricks and mortar business. And so there are 80,000 colleagues, over 80,000 colleagues who are brand ambassadors and are a really important part of that experience that we want customers to have when they come into a Primark. And so if they don't not only understand what the Primark brand stands for, but recognize their role in it, then it doesn't matter what we do in advertising and marketing and um all of the other uh things that we think are our specialty and our expertise, it really starts and almost ends with them.

David Wheldon (host) 33:58

Yeah, 80,000 brand advocates is a great place to start.

Michelle McEttrick 34:03

Exactly.

David Wheldon (host) 34:04

And and just on the subject of marketing, as you know, I've been on tour with the Ritbot, and one of the questions I love that one of the questions that we asked the Ritbot is that you know, a lot of people say that marketing's lost its luster and it's not a career that people are choosing to have anymore. I mean, if you were selling marketing to incomers, you know, what what would you say to that? Do you think this has lost its luster? Do you think we can attract great talent?

Michelle McEttrick 34:32

Yeah, I don't know. I would say, so we're talking about people who have yet to start their career.

David Wheldon (host) 34:39

Yeah.

Michelle McEttrick 34:40

So I would say look at the people, your parents' generation, your parents' age, and ask yourself which of them enjoy what they do.

David Wheldon (host) 34:50

Yeah.

Michelle McEttrick 34:52

Odds are it's not going to be a long list of things that might sound attractive when you look purely at the um financial equation.

David Wheldon (host) 35:02

That is a fantastic answer. I love that. Yeah, because it's true. I mean, they it's enjoyable. I mean, the the Ripbot for what it's worth was talking about, you know, unfortunately, it's become a kind of war of money at point of entry, and you can get more money if you join the tech companies or you know, these days, even lawyers. I mean, the graduate entry programs for legal companies are astonishing. Um, I think five times more than you'd get in a marketing graduate program. But it's not a lot about money.

Michelle McEttrick 35:36

Uh no, I know, and I mean my my friends, acquaintances of many, many generations are littered with people who thought they wanted to be lawyers, got the JD, went and did it for a year or two years, and left after the experience of what it requires. Just think about that exchange. In order to get that out, you're gonna put something in and make sure that you're really comfortable with what that is.

David Wheldon (host) 36:07

Exactly. But the uh the fact that I think it's true. If I look sideways, um, most of the people I know that come from the world we've worked in have had a very enjoyable, colorful life that may or may have not been well rewarded, but it's been fun. Exactly. That's a great place to be. All right, and and I always like to kind of end these by um asking what one thing do you think CMOs should have at the top of their agenda? What should they be focusing on at the moment?

Michelle McEttrick 36:39

I I I I'm gonna repeat myself because I I do feel really passionate about this, and I think it's talent, but I but I do think that it's talent inside and outside. So it's not just your team, but it is really thinking hard about all of the agencies and any other partners that you work with, um, and to make sure that you really understand what motivates them, and and then it's and then it's our job as leaders to provide that.

David Wheldon (host) 37:11

That is fabulous. And you know, the this business depends on great people, and Michelle, you are one of the greatest. Thank you so much for spending time talking to me today, and I know everybody around our world will really enjoy this. And we also delighted that you're part of the WFA on the WFA Council. So thanks so much.

Michelle McEttrick 37:30

Oh, thanks, David.

David Wheldon (host) 37:31

Right back at you. I'll see you soon. Take care. Another fantastic conversation, and the Primarch story is one worth watching, um, particularly with Michelle at the helm. Um I referenced in that chat the joy I've had taking the Ritbot on tour. And actually, what we're going to be doing at the beginning of December is recording a better marketing podcast where my two guests will be the Ritbot and Mark Ritson himself. So prepare your swear boxes. Uh, we'll have a great time. Take the best of care.