Ep 31: On championing creativity with Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh, Creative Salon

Creative Salon’s Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh on why clients should champion creativity, how to attract young talent and the future of the profession in a technology-driven world.

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Transcript

David Wheldon (host) 0:39

Welcome everybody and hello. It's episode 31 of WFA's better marketing, and just to show that even the WFA has cost cutting, despite the fact that we're sitting in the same city, we're actually doing this remotely, which is a bit of a shame because I couldn't be more delighted to welcome two of the finest advertising and marketing journalists I've ever met in the world. I hasten to add, in Claire Beal and Sono Singh. They both have story careers. Claire, for a long time, editor and editor-in-chief at Campaign and Sono in Marketing Week, The Drum, and other places, but um they've always covered creativity and marketing with passion, and it's um ironic that I get to do it the other way around and ask you. So, you know, you're here almost four years into the creative salon. So can I just ask you to tell us about the creative salon, what its purpose is, what you're up to? Um but great to see you both. Thank you so much for coming.

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 1:37

Thank you, thank you, David. We launched, shall I? Yeah, obviously, there's going to be interruptions and things with me and Sunu because we we uh interrupt each other a lot and finish each other's sentences a lot. Um, but we launched Greater Salon at the tail end of COVID. Um, I'd been made redundant from campaign, um, managed to lure Sunu out of the drum to come and join me. Um, and our big ambition was and still very much is to support the industry, support great people doing brilliant work that drives growth for businesses, um, to make the case for commercial creativity as an economic lever that's vital to brand building but also to the economy, um, and to do our bit to give back by helping the next generation of diverse talent get a foothold in the industry, feel it's a vibrant place that they want to work, and um give them roots in so we take a portion of our profits and give them to organizations working with next-gen diverse talent. So that that was kind of the the starting point for the whole thing, yeah. Also, you know, to add to that, we are very much both Claire and I are very much um the products of the industry. So um, and we've been championed and supported. Um, indeed, uh you know, David, you've been very much part of my career and my career journey. Uh so we've be we've been championed and supported by some very, very good people in the industry, both on the client side and the agency side. So that was very much part of our DNA, making that um, you know, beating the drum for commercial creativity for the industry as well. And also, I have to, I must add that we both started as each other's nemeses. Um, and we are now um well, we are a couple now without the sex, obviously. Um, but but it's it's it's that coming together of of two people who um tried not to acknowledge each other in the room because obviously we were very, very fierce rivals, but clearly that came out of respect. And when we first started, Creative Salon was actually a name uh that Claire had for the business. And she when when we first started talking about it, she said that's that's the name I I I have in my mind. And the salon is a nod to the Parisian salons that were run by women who did not have agency, whether socially, um indeed, uh financially, uh or politically or otherwise, and they used to get the good and the great, that led to the age of enlightenment eventually, uh, around their salons. Uh so um it's very much part of the essence of what we do as a business, where we do get the good and the great, and some of the most interesting people round tables. We are right now we are sitting in our salon because Creative Salon does have um its own salon uh in in Little Venice where we do hold these soaries. Um and I remember uh it was it it was all kind of written somewhere because I remember uh going back home and saying I'm I'm leaving and I'm starting a business uh with Claire Beal and it's called Creative Salon, and and um I think my son turned around and said, Oh, yes, it's very original, isn't it? Because it's C for Claire and S for Sunu. So it was it was all sort of kind of almost preordained. So there I think there are lovely stories to to how we did um come together as well, and we are certainly growing as a business. Um and uh yes, we we will be announcing some heavyweight uh other titans of the industry as well coming on board on Creative Salem as well. So, yes, very exciting third year. We're entering in April.

David Wheldon (host) 5:27

And and are you um happy with things so far? I have to, as you know, I'm a fan. Um Thank you. Voracious reader of everything you write and of those you bring together as a community. And uh I I suspect that many of our global readers won't have enjoyed the creative salon as much as they should. So, how do people access it if they don't know the creative salon? Tell us tell tell our listeners how they can get part of it.

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 5:54

Well, there are several aspects to our business, as Sunu said, some of it is very much physical and intimate and bringing people together and creating community. But we have a publishing platform which is completely open access, which not many platforms writing about our industry are completely open access. Um, but anyone could go onto our site and read what we what we write, um, and that serves our mission for making the case for creative, um, the power of creativity and um attracting talent to the industry, and it's really important that everything we write that champions the industry is shared as widely as possible and is seen by as many people as possible. Um, actually, our traffic to our website is you know on a very on a very average day, at least 25% of it is from the US, um and often a bit more. Um, and we we look at our stats on a probably hourly basis, and we see the little um flags of where people are tuning in from, and it we have a global audience. Um, you know, it's it's not in the millions yet, but it's fast growing, but it is international. Um so yeah, our platform is called creative.salon and um anyone can take a look. Yeah, I I also want to add to it that also the the other thing with Creative Salon is that there are uh reputations attached to it. You know, let's not forget this is Claire Beal, so you know the the the industry knows Claire. Um and uh again, you know, I've I've been around as well. So in in that way, even outside the UK, we do there are reputations. Um there are people there are lots of obviously expats outside of the UK who are running uh agencies, indeed, uh client-side businesses as well. And also a lot of uh, you know, as as you would know, a lot of um global or indeed regional CMOs tend to sit in um if not in London in the UK. So in that term, you know, in those terms, our our our audience is kind of far reaching. It's you know, uh we might have a base which is London-centric, but definitely uh it's it's it's far ranging than that.

David Wheldon (host) 8:14

But it is fascinating, is it? Because the it's so frustrating when I go onto other platforms and you and they entice you with an article, but you then can't get it unless you subscribe. Yes, um, even the subscription thanks for making it all over and the um there are an endless series of articles and the ongoing polemic about the death of creativity, and I'd love to hear you know what your view of that is. But I love the fact that you talk about commercial creativity because it's a reminder to all of us that that's what it's there for. But but what's your view? Because you know, here we are in another week where there's a gloom and doom piece about what's happening to the industry and marketing and creativity.

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 8:55

Um I think obviously creativity is alive and thriving. Um, if anything, it's become more democratized than when I started out writing about the industry. The word creativity used to have a very narrow application, um, but we have um media agency members that would consider themselves very creative and want to be part of Creative Salon because what they do is creative. Um, we have a series called Most Creative Marketers where we celebrate um the creativity within the marketing function. Um so I think as the years have gone on, what creativity is has has taken on a much broader definition. Um obviously the nature of the media means that there are fewer of those kind of shared major creative moments because we're not all sitting down watching ITV on a Saturday night in the same way, and creativity's had to adapt to become a much more speedy um solution in many cases that's personalized and targeted across hundreds of platforms and different executions. So the nature of it has changed, but I don't think the quality of it has changed, um, or the calibre of the people creating it has changed. Um, it's just harder to find in in those mass moments. I I think also it is fair to say that because there is a a breadth of creative thinking which doesn't have that neat little box that can be sort of written up as as a press release, and then you know you've you've got sort of six different outlets all writing the same headline, and in a way it is actually quite almost like a compelling headline sometimes, quite convenient to say, you know, the death of creativity or indeed the death of marketing. And and I think there has been a certain because of the business models that a lot of publications, and and we should know that, and I work for most of them, as as you said, the the business model of these publications means that they need those clickbaits. So there has been, I think, uh this sort of rise of self-flagellating kind of headlines which just keep on pronouncing the death of whatever that might be. I mean, we were with a big agency just this afternoon, and uh a lot of a lot of sort of creative moments or a lot a lot of things that they had created were quite surprising to to both of us. Yeah, and they're they're they're things that appear as a a book or a film or um a piece of PR, you know. That's when I started uh writing about creativity um quite a few years ago, those weren't part of the industry, and they are now, and that's hugely exciting that um a big creative agency will sit down and talk to you about publishing a book um on behalf of one of their clients, um or um creating uh a particular sound effect that they've kind of invented the technology behind. Um yeah, it's just a defin a different definition of creativity. Could I also add, I think David, we need probably more marketers like yourself. So there is well, you know, every time those headlines are written that creativity is dead, the responsibility is always placed on the agency world and it's the ad land, the fault of the of ad land. But at no point, you know, does a kind of marketer come up and sort of say, you know, there's there's some kind of responsibility that needs to be taken by the client community as well as to how much they're investing in sort of risk taking, in failures, in experimentation. You know, everyone is talking about AI innovation, but then it just kind of gets to the sameness of it. Um, so so I I think it needs to be a shared responsibility as well, and it's not just this the fault of agencies or ad land. So we probably need more of you, David.

David Wheldon (host) 13:03

No, well, listen, I I I I think there are plenty of it. It's interesting because the piece that you've got in this week's missive from the CAN survey, where actually a lot of clients, and and I'll describe them as a lot of middle ranking clients, saying, Look, it's not our fault, it's our leadership fault, it's the CEO's fault, or it's always somebody else's fault. And I think this champion of creativity can be done at every level, and but there's no doubt that unless you've got the top of the house converted to the power of creativity, you're going to struggle. And I and I was remembering, Sonna, as I was preparing for this, I think was it in 2003 that PG flew you out to Cincinnati and when PG had decided it was time for them to get creativity and look what happened later. But that's uh it's remarkable. It's over 20 years ago. Can you can you what were they talking about then? I mean, because they did have a radical conversion, there's no doubt about that.

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 13:58

Yes, I mean the the the intent was slightly different in the sense because um I uh well obviously very good journalists, I had been breaking uh a lot of stories, which you know it wasn't I wasn't breaking embargoes, I I was just good. So I was I was breaking a lot of stories, but they they weren't ready at the time to talk about those launches or talk about all those initiatives. But also I think they did have a moment of reckoning at the time where uh they they flew myself and another um I think from press association. Uh, and and the idea was to open their doors and get their marketers to talk to journalists and really talk about the aspirations they had for the marketers themselves and how so everything from product to to uh design to uh innovation of the the product itself to creativity and the execution of of uh creativity. I mean I I went to nappy factories, soap factories, um, and and uh because I was there for about I think about 10 days. I I it was such an immersive time, but that was also the time when the first day I still remember they were showing us how as a business they don't have any cabins with doors, so they all had open plan, and that was such a big thing at the time that all of a sudden everything is out in the open and they're sharing, you know, good their best practices, not just internally, but with the outside world as well.

David Wheldon (host) 15:31

But there's no doubt that you know they embraced then the power of commercial creativity and they continue to, but I I think that the headline is this there's a communication breakdown between agencies and clients. I I I tend to disagree with that. I mean, I I actually do think the clients must take a lot more responsibility for this because it's the clients that need to say yes, and indeed internally need to convince their colleagues that there is more money and more growth to be made by better creativity than by turning out the same as everybody else.

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 16:04

I mean, look at what uh what happened to Record Ben Kiza as well when they started investing in creativity, and it wasn't just about the volume sales, it was so much more beyond that. You know, they're they in terms of creative rankings, in terms of better products, in terms of kind of the the brand visibility of their products, I mean that that uh worked uh in in their their favour. It's quite an interesting piece in uh uh system one did, I think, yesterday or this week, talking about how uh car advertising has become so boring. Uh but again to your point, it needs to be driven by the by the brands themselves and the marketers in terms of what they actually want and the and the audience that they want to engage with. I mean, all all the research is there and it has been there for years, but I think the the message is finally starting to land that the most creative work is also the most effective work. Um, but that is certainly a message that needs to be uh we can't take the foot off the the accelerator on that in terms of driving that message into client boardrooms. It it's still it still needs to be said.

David Wheldon (host) 17:13

Yeah, well one of the one of the things I heard about last week, which I was very excited to hear about, is that in Spain um they're actually looking at changing the law so that investment in marketing gets treated in the same way as investment in research and development. In other words, you can put it on your balance sheet and it's tax protected because it's still true. You know, the laziest companies cut the easiest thing to cut, and that's actually the marketing budget. Um if that were protected because I think all the helping help, but I think it's down to the violent agreement on that one. I I also think a part of your founding purpose, and I know you continue to do this because it's wonderful that you're putting money into it, is championing the cause of diverse and inclusion. And again, most of the pieces I've read will say yes, some progress, but not enough. I mean, can you talk to the audio to us all about that? You know, where do you see the industry? What else can we do to accelerate diversity and inclusion and indeed equality in our industry?

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 18:23

Well, I I think it has to be business critical to everybody involved. So I'm a big advocate of trying to bake it as much as possible in a contract stage so that it's part of um the client agency relationship up front, that there will be diverse teams, um, and that that's part of the nuts and bolts of doing business, is that teams have to be um as diverse as humanly possible. Yeah. I mean I I must must confess, I'm I'm an immigrant, came to the UK in 2000. Um, and I I have to confess I I haven't called it out or haven't like you know like been an active flag bearer as such, because as an immigrant, um the default mode really is elbows out um or fit in. Um and I think maybe Claire would agree I've been more elbows out than fitting in. And and you know me enough well enough, David, to know that's that's been the case. But what that also means is I think the the bit that that uh the the industry, the society at large almost forgets is that there isn't a universal you know a universal experience for everybody. And I think that is the big big challenge when as an industry or as a business you s you you have certain processes in place. You know, where do you kind of begin? It's not a Easy answer to fix. There are no easy answers, which is why I think these questions need to be continually asked, and you know, therefore some change. But also, I I would add that now, as women of a certain age, there are, you know, so when we talk about diversity, we don't even address things like intersectionality, for instance. You know, then there's ageism on top of that, all of those things. So these are these are huge challenges for any. I don't think there is a parallel to any other industry other than sort of advertising media who kind of are continually asking themselves these questions and the level of interrogation that happens. I mean, when Claire and I sort of started in the industry, we could count, not on even one hand on one finger, say the number of women uh on on top of the businesses. Now, when Claire and I do these uh salon suppers, the majority of uh business leaders sometimes happen to be women. I mean that is is a huge step change that that needs to be celebrated, but you were right, it you know, the the the the championing of it needs to carry on. The questioning, the interrogation needs to carry on. Yeah, you're right, intersectionality is such an important dimension. We've got a lot more female leaders, but um not enough diversity amongst those women, let alone yeah, anyway. It's a it's a big topic, but one of the things that we feel very passionately about is making sure that there's a that this is an attractive industry to young diverse talent to want to come into. Um so that's why we do what we what we're doing to try and uh draw them in and give them um present them with the opportunities and support them once they're engaged. Um but it's um that's going to take a few a generation at least to actually turn into leadership, diversity at leadership level. Um but the work has to start now and it has to be meaningful and it has to be business critical if it's not the tap's not just suddenly turned off when times are tough.

David Wheldon (host) 22:17

No, but I do think you know most boards have now correctly got um targets to make sure that they're addressing this issue. I mean, if I I think I've said this to you before, Sonia, when I arrived at what was then RBS, it was the first time that all of my direct reports were mail. I was astonished, actually. Uh and when I left it was 50-50 just as it should be with other things in there. Because unless you set about actually making change happen, it doesn't. Um but I do think you know what you're doing to keep this industry attractive should be recognised and called out because that also worries me that we're not getting enough talent into the pipeline because it's always been, especially the advertising side of the fence, I would say there's always been fantastically diverse, interesting people, uh, and they're what's made it such a powerhouse of a business to work in. Um, unless it remains attractive, you know, why would people do it? So it can you talk about what you're up to? What what are you seeing?

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 23:22

So I just thought just to conclude that point, David. I think it is um huge drice up in Met in terms of um trying to bring diverse talent in. It's actually looking after it, making those people feel that they belong once they're in, is that the challenge that it's very definitely still remains as well. Yes, yeah, that's that's what we're hearing from a lot of businesses, is they do have a pipeline, but making sure that they stay in, how they stay in, um, and whether that's a generational challenge as well, maybe that's sort of compounded by that in terms of the the the um expectations they that they have of of workplace uh to the kind of expectations uh that we had, you know, it was almost a level of servitude uh when we first started, um, and that doesn't happen anymore. So I think there's there's there's lots of factors and layers. I I I suppose what we're also saying is it is a very nuanced conversation um and for businesses as well, because you know, at as much as it is business critical, they need to have start having these nuanced conversations and debates and making sure you know those places themselves have safe spaces where people feel on on both sides or all the sides, people feel that they they can ask questions, they can pose questions as well. So I think that there needs to be a starting point there.

David Wheldon (host) 24:52

And I was delighted to see the reinvention of the full service agency, albeit in a slightly different guise, and I like Johnny Hornby's quote about you know whose idea was it to stop this anyway? Um, but you know, that is heavily tech driven as well. What are you thinking about the impact of tech on our industry and how are you hearing people talk about it?

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 25:15

There are levels of excitement and obviously some trepidation about what it means for individuals' jobs. But I think um we're in a transition phase, aren't we? Which is uh always what makes people nervous. Um I think most people feel that the opportunities longer term are very powerful and important um to the industry. It's just getting there might be a little bit messy. Um everybody that we've spoken to is very clear that um the human element is going to be the thing that makes the difference, the thing that makes something um magical and attractive rather than lowest common denominator and bland and um kind of feeling off the shelf. So there's a lot of confidence that um people will remain absolutely critical. Um, but yeah, a lot of excitement. Yes, absolutely. I think also, I think the excitement is more, I would say, from the agency side. Uh, not only are they investing in in you know all the new technologies, they are experimenting with uh uh some of the bigger ones, obviously, who do have the resources are kind of um they are testing, trialing, failing as well. I think a little bit of nervousness, it's more on the client side, and some of the clients we're talking to, some of the marketers we are talking to, are almost unsure or somewhat unsure of the kind of questions they need to be asking. So there's a lot of kind of sort of plugging away from the agency side where they're sort of, oh, you know, this is this is the new tech thing that we've just invested or a holding group has invested in. I think what the clients or the marketers don't know is how that is therefore going to help them, if not today, uh tomorrow. Um, but the the other interesting bit, actually, adding to that point of people also is the agencies are realizing, or at least the smarter ones are realizing, that there is a there there's going to be fundamentally a skills gap with all these new technologies coming in. You know, so so it's it's not going to be mass redundancies or mass layoffs, but how do you play with these and what kind of skills uh you might need. Uh, so there is a lot of there's a lot of in the there are lots of interesting conversations happening on that side as to what are the kind of skills. So I I I genuinely do think clients really need to plug into their agencies to ask you know to almost ask them the questions, what new skills are you looking at, or where are you looking at talent next? Because that's where they need to be plugging into as well. We've we've been doing a big piece of research on behalf of one of our partners into um all of the investment that's being made in data and technology by the holding companies. So we've been speaking to marketers, um, intermediaries, influencers in the industry, and the general feeling is that technology becomes a kind of hygiene uh that ultimately everyone will have access to more or less the same um tech, the same data sources, the same um tools for the trade. But the difference that everybody is identifying is the people that are using them and the people that are running the companies that are providing the service, and they're the idea that people buy are buying people and the clients are wanting to work with um a management team rather than a suite of tools still holds true and will hold true, which is such a good thing to hear. Yeah, and even even the the the AI businesses themselves. I was listening to this interview that the Nvidia uh CEO was was doing, and he said, Oh people, can you please stop investing in uh coding? Uh, because I've given you the tools, I've given you AI, the smarter people will still remain smart because they would know how best to use the tools. So it's it's you know, it e even the ones selling the tool know that ultimately it'll be the the creative brains, it'll be the thinkers, um, it'll be the risk takers that that will prevail eventually.

David Wheldon (host) 29:35

Yeah, I mean I do we were talking before you joined about you know exactly this point that technology is a tool. Last year I was asked to do a speech on the future of marketing, so I thought I would put that into chat GPT to see what it said, and what came back was perfectly acceptable. Um but when I gave it the framework that I had come up with to do my six charts, you know, it what came back was really good, and actually I used it, I used one of the things as the summary chart. Um but it's a smart tool in the right hand, so I I'm with you, I don't see it as a threat, I see it as a glorious opportunity. Um, but perhaps you can help us because one of the things we're going to be talking about at the WFA Congress in Toronto in May is is the CMO the most impossible job? And love your views on that, and also to kind of help bring us to an end here, you know, what do you think a CMO should have top of their agenda? What should they be focusing on? But kind of sweeping thing there, if you could touch on do you see it as an impossible job, and what what do you think they should be focusing on?

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 30:45

You know, it should be an impossible job, it should be the most most important job, therefore an impossible job, and therefore, you know, should should get that halo effect that it needs, and kind of I mean, we we did we we did write a big um conversation piece, I'll let you talk about it in a minute. But also going back to something we was we were discussing earlier, if ever there were a function that had all the research across decades of of why it is business critical, why it needs to be funded, why you know the the it is it is critically the most important part of the of the business and and and the brand eventually, I think that's got to be marketing. And you know, whatever you call it, whatever name you might call it, you know, the the the fundamentals of marketing, you know, the the the whether you call it four Ps, you start calling it something else, the fundamentals of marketing, the the best marketers who do the job of marketing, which is so much beyond what is marketing these days, as well. I mean, they're being asked, I mean, that that role is elevated. So you could be called the CEO like Starbucks is doing, but it's is fundamentally still the job of marketing to the people that you need to be selling your product and and and um making them your sort of loyal customers as well. So yeah, yeah, I think there needs to be a marketing job done on marketing, really, because I I totally agree. It's it should be attracting the brightest talent, it should be commanding really high salaries, it should have the status internally in brand owner companies that uh it doesn't always have. It's not always a board level position anymore, as we know. Um so I think there is a job that we should collectively be doing to raise the status of marketing. Um, there was a lot of chat over the last few days about the death of the CMO. Um I think that goes to Sunu's point about the titles may change, morph into new titles, but the job itself of building brands um across the long term is as important as it ever was, and the opportunities to do it um are more interesting and exciting and creative than ever before. It should be the job that a bright young graduate is desperate to take on.

David Wheldon (host) 33:12

No, I agree with that, and listen, I I share your optimism and passion for this, so let's hope that we can stop this endless polemic about the death of marketing because I don't see many accountants worrying about the death of you know the CFO, for instance. Well, listen, with that, I think you know what a great note to end on. Thank you so much for your time. Every success for the creative salon, and long may you keep writing the great things you're writing. Great to see you both. Thanks so much.

Claire Beale and Sonoo Singh 33:41

Thank you for your support. Thank you, David. Thank you.

David Wheldon (host) 33:44

Another great conversation, and I'm really looking forward to the next one, which is going to be with Asmita Dube, WFA's Global Marketer of the Year, the CMO of L'Oreal. Um, but before that, I'll see some of you in Toronto, and I'm really looking forward to that too. Take care, bye bye.